>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," WE HAD WANTED OUR PRIMARY DEBATE SERIES TO CONTINUE WITH THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES FOR GOVERNOR.

UNFORTUNATELY, ONLY ONE OF THEM, BUSINESSMAN CHRIS DOUGHTY, WOULD AGREE TO JOIN US.

FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE GEOFF DIEHL DECLINED OUR INVITATION, A FIRST FOR US WITH EITHER PARTY.

SO AT THIS POINT, THE BEST WAY WE CAN GIVE YOU A FEEL FOR THEIR RESPECTIVE CANDIDACIES AHEAD OF THE SEPTEMBER 6 PRIMARY IS TO REPLAY EACH OF THEIR LAST APPEARANCES ON THIS SHOW AND THEN GET CAUGHT UP ON WHAT THEY'VE SAID SINCE.

FOR DIEHL, THAT LAST APPEARANCE WAS JULY OF 2021, A TIME EVEN BEFORE GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER SAID HE WOULD NOT BE RUNNING.

SO A LOT OF OUR CONVERSATION CENTERED AROUND THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DIEHL AND BAKER, WHICH MIGHT SEEM LIKE IT WOULDN'T MATTER NOW, BUT I THINK IT STILL GIVES US A GOOD IDEA OF WHAT TYPE OF GOVERNOR DIEHL BELIEVES HE'D BE.

AS A REMINDER OF HIS BACKGROUND, DIEHL SERVED AS A STATE REP. FOR EIGHT YEARS, HELPED TO LEAD A SUCCESSFUL EFFORT ON THE BALLOT TO REPEAL THE INDEXING OF THE GAS TAX TO INFLATION, CO-CHAIRED THE CAMPAIGN OF DONALD TRUMP HERE IN 2016, AND RAN AGAINST SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN IN 2018.

HE DID NOT WIN THAT RACE.

HERE'S THE CONVERSATION WE HAD JUST AFTER HE ANNOUNCED HIS BID FOR GOVERNOR: >> IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

IT'S BEEN QUITE A WHILE.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU, JIM.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS, GEOFF?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, I RAN IN 2010 FOR STATE REP. BECAUSE I THOUGHT I COULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR THE TOWNS I LIVED IN AND THE TOWNS I REPRESENTED.

I GOT TO SEE A LOT MORE WHEN I GOT TO BEACON HILL, ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE STATE.

AND I GOT TO SEE A LOT MORE IN 2018 WHEN I RAN FOR U.S. SENATE.

I THINK I STILL HAVE SOMETHING TO GIVE TO MASSACHUSETTS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO RUN IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, IF I HAVE AN OPPONENT, AND TAKE MY CASE TO THE PEOPLE FOR 2020.

>> Braude: IT IS PRETTY OBVIOUS IF YOU'RE RUNNING AGAINST A THAT YOU THINK HE IS NOT DOING SOME THINGS THE WAY HE SHOULD, THAT YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY.

GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF TWO THINGS YOU THINK FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY.

>> LET'S START IN 2014, I LED THE REPEAL OF THE INDEX GAS TAX, AND HE RAN WITH ME.

AND NOW HE SAYS IT WILL NOT NOW HE IS PROPOSING TCI, THAT EVEN THE SIERRA CLUB SAID WILL NOT CREATE THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT THEY HOPED FOR.

NOW HE IS THE ONLY STATE-- MASSACHUSETTS IS THE ONLY STATE HANGING ON TO THIS T.C.I.

THING.

I THINK HE NEEDS TO LET IT GO, BUT IT DOESN'T THINK THAT THAT IS HAPPENING.

>> Braude: BUT THE UNDERLYING GOAL IS TO LIMIT CARBON AND REDUCE EMISSIONS.

EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY HE WOULD GET THERE, DO YOU SHARE THE GOAL?

>> AN UNELECTED BUREAUCRATIC GUY DECIDES WHAT THE CAP AND TRADE COST IS GOING TO BE THAT GETS PASSED ON TO PEOPLE?

I DON'T LIKE THE WAY IT IS SET UP.

AND, AGAIN, THE SIERRA CLUB SAYS THE BENEFITS TO THE ENVIRONMENT ARE NEGLIGIBLE.

>> Jim: I KNOW YOU HAVE CRITICIZED THE GOVERNOR'S HANDLING OF COVID.

WHERE WOULD YOU HAVE GOTTEN IT WRITE WHERE HE GOT IT WRONG?

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO OWN SMALL BUSINESSES HAD TO LAY OFF THEIR EMPLOYEES.

I SAW ZERO LAYOFFS AND ZERO FURLOUGHS FROM STATE GOVERNMENTS.

EVEN WHEN WE HAVE STORMS, THERE ARE NONESSENTIAL EMPLOYEES WHO GO HOME.

NOBODY WAS NON-ESSENTIAL IN STATE GOVERNMENT, SO THERE WAS NO SORT OF RECIPROCITY OR ALIGNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE WORKING IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR FROM THE STATE SIDE.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS ONE INITIAL MISTAKE.

THE ROLLOUT OF THE VACCINE WAS ANOTHER PROBLEM.

AND WE'VE SEEN WITH THE SOLDIERS' HOMES-- THERE WERE ISSUES WITH HOW WE MANAGED WITH PEOPLE-- THE STATE MANAGED PATIENTS WITH COVID.

>> Braude: DO YOU HOLD CHARLIE BAKER RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF 76-- ACTUALLY 77, COUNTING ONE YEAR LATER-- DEATHS AT THAT SOLDIERS' HOME?

>> I ALSO DON'T HOLD HIM RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF THE SEVEN MARINES WHEN THE R.M.V.

DUNT PULL THE LICENSE.

>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED SMALL BUSINESSES IN YOUR ANNOUNCEMENT, AND I REMAIN MYSTIFIED THAT WHY BUSINESSES LIKE THE HOME DEPOT REMAINED OPEN, WHILE THE LOCAL HARDWARE STORE REMAINED CLOSED.

MY HARDWARE STORE REMAINED OPEN.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

THEY TOLD ME WHEN I WALKED IN, THEY WERE AN ESSENTIAL BUSINESS.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> NOT EVERY SMALL BUSINESS WAS ABLE TO GET THAT STATUS, WHATEVER IT WAS.

IT'S BEEN PRETTY RECOGNIZED ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND IN MASSACHUSETTS, THE BIG-BOX STORES WERE LEFT OPEN WHILE THE SMALLER BUSINESSES WERE FORCED TO SUFFER AND BE CLOSED.

MY WIFE AND I OWN A SMALL BUSINESS.

WE WERE FORCED TO CLOSE.

BUT WE ADAPTED IMMEDIATELY TO THE TECHNOLOGY AND GOT KIDS ONLINE FOR DANCE CLASSES, OF ALL THINGS, WITH ZOOM.

THE PRIVATE SECTOR WAS AWBL TO BE RESILIENT, BUT REALLY NOT WITHOUT A LOT OF INTERFERENCE WITH GOVERNMENT.

>> Braude: AND YOU MENTIONED THE VACCINATION SCREW-UP, WHICH HE ACKNOWLEDGED.

AND NOW WE HAVE ONE OF THE HIGHEST VACCINATION RATES IN THE COUNTRY.

AND HE DESERVE CREDIT FOR THAT?

>> WE ALSO HAVE ONE OF THE THIRD-HIGHEST PER-CAPITA DEATH RATE.

DOES HE DESERVE CREDIT FOR THAT?

>> THERE WAS A RECENT POLL IN THE "GLOBE," A SUFFOLK POLL IN THE "GLOBE," TALKING ABOUT THE DIRECTION THE STATE IS GOING IN.

I'M SURE YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THIS.

DEMOCRATS, 79-12, SAID RIGHT DIRECTION.

INDEPENDENTS, 57% OF THE ELECTORATE, 60 TO 26.

THE ONLY GROUP THAT WAS ROUGHLY A DEAD HEAT WERE REPUBLICANS, ONLY 10% ARE REPUBLICANS.

OBVIOUSLY, THAT IS UNDER BAKER'S LEADERSHIP.

WHO IS THE IDEAL VOTER?

IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO GET REPUBLICANS TO VOTE FOR YOU TO END UP BEING ELECTED GOVERNOR, AS YOU KNOW FAR BETTER THAN I.

WHO IS THE IDEAL VOTER IN THIS MIX WHERE OVERWHELMINGLY PEOPLE SUPPORT THE GOVERNOR AND THINK WE'RE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

>> THIS MAY SHOCK YOU, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CHECKED THESE NUMBERS, I WAS ACTUALLY THE THIRD HIGHEST VOTE-GETTER IN 2018.

SO THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS PEOPLE KNOW WHO I AM.

THEY KNOW WHAT I STAND FOR.

I THINK THEY APPRECIATE IT.

AND THIS STATE WILL ELECT SOMEONE WHO IS A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR.

I MAY BE CENTER-RIGHT, AND CHARLIE BAKER MAY GOVERN CENTER- LEFT, BUT I THINK GIVEN THE CHOICE OF WHO THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE MAY BE, CENTER-RIGHT MAY BE WHAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR.

>> LET ME USE YOUR WORDS.

YOU SAID, "WHAT WE STAND FOR."

THE REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE, THE PARTY HERE, THE CHAIR OF THE PARTY REFUSED TO LISTEN TO GOOD-BYE, BELIEVE EVERY REPUBLICAN ELECTED TO THE LEGISLATURE, WITH ONE EXCEPTION, SAYING THEY SHOULD GET RID OF A COMMITTEE MEMBER WHO SAID SHE WAS, "SICKENED BY THE FACT THAT A REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS IN THE WORCESTER AREA ADOPTED KIDS, HE WAS GAY-- HE AND HIS PARTNER ADOPTED KIDS.

BAKER SAID SHE SHOULD BE THROWN OFF THE COMMITTEE.

THE CHAIR OF THE STATE COMMITTEE SAID IT WAS A FREE SPEECH ISSUE.

WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON THERE?

>> SO, SPHRAWL, I TOTALLY SIDE WITH THE CANDIDATE, VERY NICE GUY, LOVELY FAMILY.

I ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT HIS RUN FOR CONGRESS.

SECONDLY, I THINK THE STATE COMMITTEE WOMAN WHO MADE THE COMMENTS WAS WRONG WITH WHAT SHE SAID.

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE IS OUR BYLAWS DON'T PERMIT FOR REMOVAL OF A MEMBER FOR FREE SPEECH.

I UNDERSTAND THAT SPEECH MAY NOT BE ANYTHING ANYBODY AGREES WITH, ALL I'M SAYING IS THERE IS NOTHING IN OUR BYLAWS THAT ALLOWS FOR REMOVAL.

>> IN 2016 YOU WERE MASSACHUSETTS COCHAIR FOR PUMP FOR PRESIDENT.

IF HE CHOOSES TO RUN AGAIN IN 2020-- HE SAID HE HAS MEAT UP HIS MIND, HE IS NOT GOING TO TELL US FOR A WHILE, AND HE OFFERED YOU THE SAME POSITION, WOULD YOU TAKE IT?

>> YOU KNOW, HYPOTHETICALS ARE CRAZY.

FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK I WOULD BE ALLOWED ON THE SHOW AGAIN IF I ENDORSED DONALD TRUMP.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF YOU RECALL, YOU WERE CHAIR IN 2016, AND YOU'RE ON THE SHOW NOW, AND YOU WERE ON THE CHAIR THEN.

SO THAT IS IRRELEVANT.

WOULD YOU ACCEPT THE OFFER IF IT WAS MADE IN 2024?

>> I DON'T THINK HE IS RUNNING, SO I THINK IT IS A HYPOTHETICAL.

IT'S NOT EVEN EXIST.

>> Braude: NO HYPOTHETICAL.

HE SAID HE WON THE ELECTION.

IT WAS STOLEN.

IS HE RIGHT?

>> NO, THOSE STATES, OBVIOUSLY, THEY HAVE TO SORT OUT IF THEY HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH VOTING.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS A STOLEN ELECTION.

I THINK AT THIS POINT WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD AND STOP CRYING OVER SPILLED MILK AS A REPUBLICAN PARTY AND LOOK TO THE FUTURE OF WHO IS GOING TO BE THE BEST CANDIDATE FOR '24.

>> Braude: IF YOU HAD BEEN ELECTED TO THE SENATE AND HAD BEATEN ELIZABETH WARREN, WOULD YOU HAVE VOTED FOR THAT BIPARTISAN COMMISSION ON JANUARY 6 THAT WAS REJECTED BY ALL OF THE REPUBLICANS THERE?

>> JIM, YOU KNOW MY HISTORY IN THE LEGISLATURE.

I HAVE ACTUALLY VOTED FOR MORE TRANSPARENCY ALL OF THE TIME.

I THINK, YES, I WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR A COMMISSION TO GET TO THE BOTTOM, GOOD, BAD, OR UGLY.

LET'S FIGURE IT OUT AND NOT LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> Braude: SO, GEOFF, YOU'LL BE BACK HERE AGAIN WHEN YOU'RE INVITED?

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> I HOPE IT IS OFTEN.

>> Braude: GEOFF, IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

CONGRATULATIONS IN YOUR CANDIDACY, GOOD LUCK.

I DO HOPE TO SEE YOU OFTEN OVER THE NEXT YEAR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

TAKE CARE.

>> Braude: SO MUCH FOR THAT PROMISE TO RETURN, AND I DON'T KNOW HOW I MISSED J.F.K.

IN THE BACKGROUND WHEN WE WERE TALKING!

JOINING ME WITH A FEW GEOFF DIEHL UPDATES, BEFORE WE TURN TO CHRIS DOUGHTY, IS GBH POLITICS REPORTER ADAM REILLY.

DO YOU BELIEVE I MISSED-- THAT PHOTOGRAPH OF J.F.K.

WAS ON THE CAMERA MORE THAN HE WAS.

>> ONCE YOU NOTICE IT, YOU CAN'T STOP LOOKING AT IT.

>> SO HE SAYS TO ME AT THE END THERE, "I DON'T THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN."

FAST FORWARD THREE MONTHS TO OCTOBER OF LAST YEAR, HERE'S WHAT GEOFF DIEHL HAD TO SAY: "SADLY, IT HAS BECOME CLEAR AS THE AUDIT RESULTS FROM ARIZONA, GEORGIA, AND PENNSYLVANIA HAVE COME TO LIGHT, THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS RIGGED."

SO IS HE SEARCHING AROUND TO FIND OUT WHAT THE RIGHT AND MOST MARKETABLE LINE IS ON THE BIG LIE?

>> I MEAN, YOU CAN SAY THAT, BUT THAT'S SUCH A HUGE REVERSAL, RIGHT.

THAT'S NOT A LITTLE BIT OF FINESSE.

PEOPLE ARE STILL CONCERNED ABOUT THE RESULTS.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN BY RAMPING UP VOTER INTELLECT.

THAT'S A COMPLETE 180.

MY ASSUMPTION IS THAT HE CAUGHT WIND OF THE FACT THAT dentaldepartures.com WAS GOING TO BE GETTING IN THE RACE, MAYBE HAD PEOPLE IN HIS EAR SAYING YOU CAN'T GET REPUBLICANS TO VOTE FOR YOU IF YOU SAY IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON.

THIS IS SOMETHING THEY CARE DEEPLY ABOUT AND HE ARE VERSED HIMSELF.

>> CHRISTIE NOEM IS COMING TOMORROW-- I WAS GOING TO SAY GOVERNOR OF NORTH THOWKD.

YOU TOLD ME IT'S NORTH DAKOTA.

THERE'S A PIECE OF DIEHL-- AND YOU COVERED HIM CLOSELY-- DIEHL, DeSANTIS, TRUMP, BROUGHT TO MASSACHUSETTS.

IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION?

>> I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY FAIR TO SAY.

YOU LOOK AT WHERE CHRISTIE NOEM IS ON ABORTION.

SHE IS VERY ANTIABORTION.

THEY LIKE TRUMP'S POLITICS, THINK MAYBE HE'S NOT BEST GUY TO RUN IN 2024.

SHE'S ONE OF THE NAMES YOU HEAR ALL THE TIME.

I CAN'T THINK OF ANY ADVANTAGE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION TO BRING IN CHRISTIE NOEM.

>> SPEAKING OF THE DeSANTIS THING, IT SEEMS LIKE HE BORROWED A PIECE OF THE EDUCATION THING WITH HIM.

HERE'S A QUOTE FROM THE AUGUST CAMPAIGN VIDEO: I WILL CONSIDER ACTION TAKEN BY OTHER PLACE, PUTTING IN PLACE AN AGENCY IN OUR DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE NOT TEACHING OUR KIDS INAPPROPRIATE POLITICAL AGENDAS.

WHERE IS THE STORY OF MASSACHUSETTS SCHOOLS TEACHING INAPPROPRIATE POLITICAL AGENDAS?

A SOLUTION IN SEARCH OF A PROBLEM.

>> DIEHL CLAIMED ONE OF HIS DAUGHTERS HAD BEEN FORCED TO SIGN WHAT HE CALLED "A WHITE PRIVILEGE PLEDGE" AND THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE SCHOOL DISTRICT CAME OUT AND SAID THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE WAS FORCED TO SIGN-- NOT WHAT SHE VOLUNTARILY SIGNED.

BASICALLY, SHE HAD TO SIGN A MINNESOTA-- FORGIVE ME.

I'M BACK TO MY MIDWESTERN ROOTS-- A MASSACHUSETTS STATE HIGH SCHOOL LEAGUE PLEDGE TO BE SENSITIVE TO ISSUES INVOLVING RACE AND NOT ENGAGE IN RACIST BEHAVIOR.

HE REALLY, REALLY DOESN'T LIKE THE IDEA OF KIDS BEING FORCED IN SCHOOLS TO LEARN ABOUT SEX BEING FORCED TO TALK ABOUT RACISM, AND GRAPPLE WITH THE IDEA THAT RACISM IS INGRAINED IN A LOT OF PARTS OF OUR SOCIETY.

HE HATES THAT.

>> DID YOU NOTICE THE JOHN KENNEDY PAINTING IN THE BACKGROUND.

>> CHRIS DOUGHTY'S LAST APPEARANCE HERE WAS LAST APRIL 19 OF THIS YEAR.

SHORTLY BEFORE THE STATE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION.

DOUGHTY IS A BUSINESSMAN WHO SPENT 30-PLUS YEARS BUILDING AND GROWING A METAL MANUFACTURING COMPANY BEFORE DIVING INTO HIS FIRST RUN FOR OFFICE, AND HERE'S OUR CONVERSATION FROM A FEW MONTHS BACK: >> Braude: CHRIS, A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> JIM, THANKS SO MUCH.

>> Braude: WHY DO YOU WANT THIS JOB?

WHY ARE YOU QUALIFIED?

>> I WANT TO MAKE THIS STATE MORE AFFORDABLE.

I'VE BEEN HERE FOR 30 YEARS.

I'VE HEARD IT FROM CITIZENS, FROM EMPLOYEES IN MY OWN COMPANY.

I'VE HEARD IT FROM THOSE I WORK WITH IN MY COMMUNITY, AND IT'S JUST BECOME SO EXPENSIVE TO LIVE HERE, AND ALSO FOR OUR BUSINESSES.

>> Braude: YOU ACKNOWLEDGE YOU HAVE NO POLITICAL EXPERIENCE, A TON OF BUSINESS EXPERIENCE.

IF A POLITICIAN WHO WAS SUCCESSFUL SAID, "I'D LIKE TO COME RUN YOUR BUSINESS.

I HAVE NEVER RUN A BUSINESS.

I HAVE NO BUSINESS EXPERIENCE."

WOULD YOU CONSIDER HIM OR HER FOR THAT JOB?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, WHEN I LOOK AT THE JOB DESCRIPTION OF A GOVERNOR, I'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR 30 YEARS-- BUILDING TEAMS AND ORGANIZING AND PROBLEM SOLVING, BUDGET, COMPLEX BUDGET ISSUES.

I THINK THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF A GOVERNOR ARE VERY SIMILAR TO RUNNING AN ENTERPRISE LIKE MINE.

>> Braude: SO MOST OF THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS, AT LEAST IN MY 35-PLUS YEARS IN MASSACHUSETTS, ARE SELF-DESCRIBED FISCAL CONSERVATIVES AND SOCIAL LIBERALS.

WOULD YOU EXPLAIN YOURSELF THAT WAY?

>> I WOULD.

I AM FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE.

I WORRY ABOUT OVERSPENDING.

I WORRY ABOUT WASTE AND FRAUD.

AND I WORRY ABOUT MAKING SURE WE GET THE MOST FOR EVERY DOLLAR THAT OUR CITIZENS PAY THROUGH THEIR TAXES.

>> THAT'S ONLY THE FIRST HALF OF THE DESCRIPTIVE.

SOCIAL LIBERAL, DO YOU THINK THAT FITS YOU, TOO?

>> I THINK I'M A MODERATE MAN, COMMON SENSE.

I REALIZE THAT EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT LIFEE XPERIENCES AND I WOULD APPROACH THE JOB WITH THAT PERSPECTIVE.

>> Braude: AM I NOT RIGHT THAT YOUR POSITION ON ABORTION IS ONLY EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE AND INCEST?

IS THAT NOT WHERE YOU ARE?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I'M PRO-LIFE, BUT I ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

I HAVE NO INTEREST IN MAKING A CHANGE TO IT.

>> WOULD YOU HAVE VETOES THE DOE ACT?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS ONE OF THOSE ISSUE WHERE'S THE CITIZENS' INTERESTS AND WHAT THE CITIZENS WANT, I THINK THE GOVERNORS NEED TO REFLECT WHAT IT IS THAT OUR CITIZENS WOULD LIKE.

AND I THINK WHAT THEY ENDED UP DOING BY PUTTING THROUGH THE VETO ENDED UP BEING ADDED INTO THE CONSTITUTION IS NOW SET IN OUR STATE.

>> IT'S A STATUTE.

IT'S NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE.

LET ME BE CLEAR, WOULD YOU HAVE VETOED THAT EXPANSION OF RATES, LIKE GOVERNOR BAKER DID?

>> I WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED GOVERNOR BAKER ON THAT.

>> TO BE CLEAR, SHOULD THE SITUATION PRESENT ITSELF, YOU WOULD OPPOSE AND EXPANSION OF VOTING RIGHTS-- ABORTION RIGHTS.

I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> AGAIN, I WOULD FOLLOW GOVERNOR BAKER ON THAT.

>> Braude: YOU VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP IN 2020, WHY?

>> I THOUGHT HITS POLICIES BEGAN TO MAKE A LOT OF SENSE TO ME.

PARTICULARLY, AS I MENTIONED, THE CHINESE TRADE PRACTICES WERE DIFFICULT ON MY BUSINESSES AND PARTICULARLY ON MY CUSTOMERS' BUSINESSES.

I WAS GRATEFUL THAT SOMEONE EVENTUALLY STOOD UP TO THE CHINESE AND SAID, "HEY, WE HAVE GOT TO HAVE A FAIR FIELD FOR US TO PLAY ON."

>> Braude: I THINK IT WAS ON CHANNEL 5 YOU SAID RECENTLY YOU WERE ASKED IF YOU WOULD VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP SHOULD, HE'D BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IN 2024, YOU SAID, "TYPICALLY, I ALWAYS VOTE ALONG PARTY LINES."

THAT MEANS YOU WOULD VOTE FOR A MAN WHO WAS IMPEACHED TWICE, A MAN WHO A JUDGE IN CALIFORNIA WAS A COUP IN SEARCH OF A LEGAL THEORY; A GUY WHO I THINK CREDIBLY HAS BEEN CHARGEDDED, AT LEAST ACCUSED OF LEADING AN INSURRECTION.

YOU'RE COMFORTABLE HAVING THAT KIND OF A MAN BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AGAIN?

>> AS I SAID BEFORE, HISTORICALLY AND TYPICALLY, I VOTE ALONG PARTY LINES.

THAT'S BEEN TYPICAL FOR ME.

>> Braude: BUT YOU VOTED FOR HILARY CLINTON IN 2016.

SHE'S NOT A REPUBLICAN.

>> IT'S TYPICALLY.

I TRY TO LOOK AT EVERY SITUATION AS BEST I CAN.

WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP FIRST CAME ON THE SCENE, HIS TONE WAS A LITTLE HARSH FOR ME, A LITTLE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO GET MY MIND AROUND.

>> Braude: AGAIN, IF I MAY JUST BRIEFLY, CHRIS, HE-- THE EVIDENCE IS MOUNTING THAT HE LED AN INSURRECTION.

HE CONTINUES TO LIE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

THAT'S-- YOU'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE DANGER TO DEMOCRACY OF ANOTHER TERM OF THAT INDIVIDUAL?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AS I'VE SAID MANY TIMES ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, THESE ARE NOT THE ISSUES I'M RUNNING ON.

I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE SOME IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS IN OUR STATE, THAT THE PRESS ASKS ME THESE QUESTIONS ALL THE TIME, BUT I'M NOT CAMPAIGNING.

THIS IS NOT WHAT THE CITIZENS ARE TALKING ABOUT.

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE HIGH COST OF LIVING HERE.

I HEAR FROM BUSINESS PEOPLE EVERY DAY THEY ARE PLANNING TO LEAVE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO BE HERE.

THE REAL-LIFE HEART-WRENCHING STORIES I HEAR OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, WE NEED TO PIVOT A BIT, AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE ISSUES.

AROUND THE KITCHEN TABLES, PEOPLE ARE HURTING.

THEY JUST-- FINANCIALLY, THEY ARE HURTING.

THE INFLATION IS OUT OF CONTROL, THE COST OF LIVING IN OUR STATE.

SO I HOPE THE PRESS BEGINS TO PIVOT AND SAY, "THAT'S OLD HISTORY, THAT'S A LONG TIME AGO."

>> Braude: IT'S NOT OLD HISTORY.

HE'S THINKING OF RUNNING IN 2024.

LET'S PIVOT, SINCE YOU MENTIONED IT.

WHAT COULD YOU AS GOVERNOR DO ABOUT INFLATION IN MASSACHUSETTS?

>> NOT MUCH ON INFLATION, BUT CERTAINLY RIGHT NOW WE HAVE-- WE'RE THE SECOND OR THIRD HIGHEST COST OF LIVING IN AMERICA.

FOR OUR BUSINESSES, WE ARE THE MOST EXPENSIVE STATE IN THE COUNTRY TO OPERATE A BUSINESS.

HOW MANY MORE BUSINESSES CAN WE LOSE BEFORE WE ALL SAY, "HEY, TIME OUT."

ALSO, I GENUINELY BELIEVE THAT THE NEXT GOVERNOR WILL HAVE TO GET US THROUGH A RECESSION AND IT COULD BE A VERY SERIOUS RECESSION.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO GET OUR BALANCE SHEET IN ORDER.

WE HAVE TO PAY DOWN OUR DEBT.

WE HAVE TO GET READY FOR THAT, AND WE HAVE TO KEEP THE BUSINESSES FROM LEAVING.

>> Braude: HOW WOULD YOU RATE GOVERNOR BAKER'S EIGHT YEARS IN OFFICE, CHRIS?

>> I'M NOT HERE TO RATE ANYONE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK I WOULD LIKE TO BUILD ON THE THINGS THAT HAVE WORKED, THAT HE'S IMPLEMENTED.

I THINK WE WOULD BUILD ON THINGS THAT ARE WORKING.

I WOULD BRING MY OWN PERSPECTIVE, MY OWN VIEW OF THE WORLD TO THE JOB.

I COME FROM THE MANUFACTURING WORLD, THE WORKING CLASS FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, AND I THINK I WOULD HAVE A REAL FOCUS ON WHAT DO WE DO FOR THOSE WORKING FAMILIES?

>> Braude: LET'S TALK ABOUT ONE SUBSET OF WORKING FAMILIES.

YOU CHOSE A RUNNING MATE WHO VOTED AGAINST, AS A LEGISLATOR, AGAINST BANNING CONVERSION THERAPY, WHICH I ASSUME PEOPLE KNOW IS A DISCREDITED, DANGEROUS PROCEDURE, AN ATTEMPT TO CHANGE A PERSON'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION, IDENTITY.

WHY SHOULD THAT NOT CHANGE, CHRIS?

>> I'M AGAINST CONVERSION THERAPY, AND SO IS MY RUNNING MATE.

NEITHER OF US SUPPORT CONVERSION THERAPY.

WHAT I EXPLAINED ON TV IS THAT THE REASON SHE OPPOSED THAT BILL IS BECAUSE THERE WAS SPECIFIC WORDING ON WHAT A THERAPIST COULD TALK TO THEIR PATIENT ABOUT, AND SHE FELT LIKE THAT WAS AN OVERREACH, THAT WE SHOULDN'T INTERJECT GOVERNMENT BETWEEN PATIENTS AND THERAPISTS.

>> Braude: I UNDERSTAND THAT CONCEPT, BUT I LOOKED UP THIS AFTERNOON THE VOTE ON THAT MEASURE THAT SHE VOTED AGAINST WAS 147 TO 8 AND, IN FACT, THREE-QUARTERS OF HER FELLOW REPUBLICANS VOTED FOR THE BAN.

SO IS THE NOTION THAT SHE SAW SOMETHING THAT 95% OF HER COLLEAGUES, INCLUDING 75% OF HER REPUBLICANS, DIDN'T UNDERSTAND?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WAS HER RECORD.

SHE VOTED IT THAT WAY.

SHE EXPLAINED IT TO ME THAT WAY, THAT SHE WAS NOT SUPPORTIVE OF CONVERSION THERAPY, BUT JUST DIDN'T LIKE THAT LANGUAGE BETWEEN THE THERAPIST AND A PATIENT, AND I UNDERSTOOD THAT.

>> CHRIS DOUGHTY, IT'S REALLY GOOD TO MEET YOU, I HOPE THERE'SAS DEBATE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

CHRIS TOLD US HE WANTED SEVERAL DEBATES WITH DIEHL AND HE WOULD LIKE TO DEBATE AS OFTEN AS HE CAN.

ONE MORE THING BEFORE WE BRING ADAM BACK INTO THIS.

SINCE I ASKED DOUGHTY ABOUT ABORTION AND DIDN'T ASK DIEHL, SHORTLY AFTER THE ALITO DECISION WAS LEAKED, DIEHL SAID THE FOLLOWING, THAT HE SUPPORTED LEAVING ABORTIONS TO THE STATES, CALLING HIMSELF A PROTECTOR OF INNOCENT LIVES AND CELEBRATED GOVERNOR BAKER'S VETO-- I CALLED IT THE DOE ACT, IT WAS THE ROE ACT OF THE YEAR BEFORE.

THE EXPRESSION OF CHRIS DOUGHTY IS HE CALLED HIMSELF A MODERATE MAN.

THE COMMERCIAL I SAW, DOESN'T IT SAY CONSERVATIVE OUTSIDER.

>> WHEN I ACTUALLY HEARD, VIA YOUR PRODUCER, THAT HE HAD CALLED HIMSELF A MODERATE MAN TALKING TO YOU, I LOST IT.

I INTERVIEWED HIM ON OUR FRIDAY POLITICAL SHOW A FEW WEEKS BEFORE THAT.

I SAID WHAT DO YOU IT MEAN TO YOU TO BE A MODERATE?

HE SAID I'M A CHRIS DOUGHTY REPUBLICAN.

HE TOLD WANT "BOSTON GLOBE" HE'S A MODERATE REPUBLICAN, SHIFTED GEARS BACK AGAIN.

NOW, APPARENTLY, HE HAS LANDED AGAIN ON CONSERVATIVE OUTSIDER AND I THINK WE HAVE AN AD OF HIM INHABITING THAT ROLE.

>> MAURA HEALEY WOULD MAKE THINGS WORSE, A LOT WORSE.

CHRIS DOUGHTY A CONSERVATIVE OUTSIDER WHO WOULD DEFEND OUR KIDS ON THE STREETS.

KEEP MORE OF YOUR DOUGH WITH DOUGHTY.

>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN, PROTECT OUR POLICE ON THE STREETS AS OPPOSED TO WHAT?

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU MENTIONED THAT.

THAT STRUCK ME IN THAT AD.

I THINK WE SAW A THIN BLUE LINE FLAG THERE-- IF NOT IN THATTADE, IT WAS ANOTHER ONE.

HE HAS TIPTOED IN THE DIRECTION ON SOME SOCIAL AND CULTURAL ISSUES.

DOUGHTY SAID IN THE DEBATE HE DID ON HOWIE CARR'S SHOW-- >> THE ONLY DEBATE DIEHL AGREED TO.

>> THEY WANT A HOT LINE FOR KIDS TO CALL IF THEY DON'T LIKE WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOL.

>> WHAT'S THE STATE OF THE RACE?

IT HAS BEEN VERY LOW-PROFILE SO FAR.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HIGHER PROFILE IF DIEHL AGREED TO DEBATE HERE.

POLLING SHOWS DIEHL AHEAD OF DOUGHTY BY A DECENT AMOUNT.

WHERE ARE THINGS?

>> IT'S WORTH REMINDING PEOPLE THAT DIEHL OVERWHELMINGLY WON THE ENDORSEMENT AT THE REPUBLICAN KENGZ.

A SUFFOLK UNIVERSITY POLL CAME OUT A FEW WEEKS AGO SHOWING BOTH OF THEM LOSING BY 30 POINTS TO MAURA HEALEY.

AND DOUGHTY IS TRYING TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT-- HE ACTUALLY SAID IN THE DEBATE I MENTIONED, HE SAID ON AIR, WE ALL KNOW GEOFF DIEHL CAN'T WIN.

HE'S TRYING TO TARGET ALABAMA VOTERS.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO WORK HERE.

IT'S A GOOD LINE.

IT'S NOT AS GOOD IF YOU CRUNCH THE NUMBERS AND SEEING DOUGHTY DOING AS POORLY AGAINST HEALEY AS DIEHL DOES.

>> THERE WAS A TERRIFIC PIECE ON THE WEB SITE THAT SAID, "IS EVERYONE UNDERESTIMATING GEOFF DIEHL?"

DID YOU READ THAT PIECE?

>> YEAH, I ACTUALLY WROTE THAT.

>> OH, YOU WROTE THAT PIECE.

SO IS EVERYONE UNDERESTIMATING GEOFF DIEHL?

>> CAN I GIVE A-- CAN I TRY TO WEASEL MY WAY OUT OF THIS?

>> WEASEL AWAY.

>> I THINK DIEHL HAS POLITICAL SKILLS WE'RE NOT SEEING IN HIS CAMPAIGN.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTERVIEW HE DID WITH YOU.

HE'S CAPABLE OF DOING THIS.

I'M A CONSERVATIVE BUT WE ALL NEED TO GET TOGETHER, LET'S BE SENSIBLE ABOUT THE SOLUTIONS THE STATE NEEDS.

HE'S MOVED AWAY FROM THAT OVER THE COURSE OF THIS CAMPAIGN, AND HE'S MAKING DECISION, LIKE BRINGING CHRISSY NOEM.

I DON'T GET WHAT HE'S DOING, AND BEING A GENERAL ELECTION THREAT, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE UNDERESTIMATING HIM.

>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IN A PRIMARY THEY ARE NOT USING WHAT I FOUND TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE ARGUMENT OF ANY REPUBLICAN RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR-- I THINK IT WAS ROMNEY CALLING IT THE GANG OF THREE, WHEN IT'S DEMOCRATS LEADING EVERYTHING.

LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO BE OVERWHELMINGLY DEMOCRATIC, A MAJORITY, IF NOT EVERYONE, ALL THE OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICERS ARE LIKELY-- WE DON'T KNOW YET, OBVIOUSLY-- BE DEMOCRATS.

WHY AREN'T THEY TALKING ABOUT DON'T YOU WANT SOMEBODY IN THE CORNER OFFICE THAT TEMPERS THE ABSOLUTISM, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD OF AN ALL-DEMOCRATIC STATE?

>> I THINK THEY FLICK IT INTO THEIR MESSAGING ON OCCASION BUT NOT AS MUCH AS I WOULD IF I WERE THEM.

WE'RE COMING OFF THE LEGISLATURE NOT GETTING THE BIG TAX RELIEF PACKAGE DONE.

>> PERFECT TIME.

>> WE'RE HEADING INTO THE LEGISLATURE MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS TO GET DRIVER'S LICENSES WHICH HALF THE ELECTRICCATE DOESN'T SUPPORT.

>> LAST QUESTION, THAT NO ONE ON OUR STAFF CAN ANSWER-- I HAVE KNOWN GEOFF DIEHL FOR A LONG TIME.

I'VE INTERVIEWED HIM A LOT OF TIMES, NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE.

DO YOU HAVE ANY THESIS-- BECAUSE WE DON'T-- AS TO WHY A GUY WHO HAS VERY LITTLE MONEY IN THE BANK, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND-- >> LIKE 40,000 BUCKS.

DOUGHTY HAS OVER A MILLION.

AND HEALEY HAS MORE MONEY THAN GOD, AND DOUGHTY CAN KEEP FUNDING HIMSELF.

>> WHY WOULD HE NOT DEBATE NOT ONCE BUT 10 TIMES IF WE ASK HIM?

>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

MY BEST GUESS IS HE'S LOCKED IN ON NOT LOSING THE PRIMARY.

HE'S AFRAID HE MIGHT LOSE THE PRIMARY.

HE'S NOT LOOKING AHEAD AND, OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S NOT GOING TO SET HIM UP TO SUCCEED, IF HE WANTS TO SUCCEED.

>> ADAM REILLY, IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

BEFORE WE GOIMENTED TO TAKE A MOMENT TO REMEMBER THE GREAT DAVID McCULLOUGH, WHO SUNDAY AT HIS HOME, I'M SURE YOU KNOW IN HINGHAM, DIED AT THE AGE OF 89.

A TWO-TIME PULITZER PRIZE WINNER, NATIONAL BOOK AWARD WINNER, AND PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM RECIPIENT-- THE AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN BROUGHT THE PAST TO LIFE-- FROM AMERICA'S FOUNDING TO THE PANAMA CANAL, THE WRIGHT BROTHERS, AND THE PRESIDENCIES OF TEDDY ROOSEVELT, HARRY TRUMAN AND JOHN ADAMS, AMONG OTHERS.

AND DESPITE A LONG CAREER IN WHICH HE REFUSED TO COMMENT ON CURRENT POLITICIANS, HE COULDN'T STAY SILENT ABOUT THE THREAT OF A DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

DAVID KNEW THE PAST AND THE FUTURE.

HE JOINED WITH KEN BURNS IN 2016 TO ENCOURAGE FELLOW HISTORIANS TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE THEN-CANDIDATE.

HE ALSO JOINED ME ON THIS SHOW THE FOLLOWING YEAR AND SPOKE ABOUT WHY SHARING OUR NATION'S HISTORY WAS SO IMPORTANT TO HIM.

>> MY STRONG FEELING IS THAT EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT KNOWING THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY, KNOWING WHO WE ARE AND WHY WE ARE THE WAY WE ARE AND WHAT WE VALUE AND WHAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH, IS ESSENTIAL, NOT JUST TO BEING A GOOD CITIZEN AND UNDERSTANDING HOW OUR GOVERNMENT WORKS, BUT IS ESSENTIAL TO THE LARGER EXPERIENCE OF BEING ALIVE.

WHY SHOULD WE CONFINE OURSELVES TO THE BRIEF BIOLOGICAL TIME THAT WE HAVE, WHEN THE WHOLE REALM OF THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE IS AVAILABLE TO US.

>> Braude: AVAILABLE, THANKS IN NO SMALL PART, TO DAVID McCULLOUGH.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE HOPE YOU'LL JOIN US TOMORROW AS WE'LL WRAP UP OUR 2022 PRIMARY DEBATES WITH THE CANDIDATES FOR SECRETARY OF THE COMMONWEALTH: SEVEN-TERM INCUMBENT BILL GALVIN AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOSTON N.A.A.C.P., TANISHA SULLIVAN.

THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:00 HERE ON GBH-2, OR SEE IT FIRST ON THE GBH-NEWS YOUTUBE PAGE AT 6:30.

THE "BOSTON GLOBE," WCVB AND WBUR ARE CONTINUING THEIR SERIES OF PRIMARY DEBATES ON THE RADIO AS WELL THIS WEEK.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT, SEE YOU TOMORROW.

Captioning sponsored by COMEDY CENTRAL Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org